There seems to be some question as to whether decisions made by people at church services are real. On Easter we had 60 people indicate that they had prayed to receive Christ. There is a particular group out there that wants to question the authenticity of these types of movements of God. The web site is called Old Truth and the writer has a negative view of in service spiritual conversions.
Michael does a great job outlining where he stands on this issue so I won’t take the time to repeat it all. I would encourage you to read his response to what has been posted at the Old Truth site. Historically the oldest truth in Christianity is that people doubted the work and identity of Jesus Christ. So I guess this web site is named correctly. If I am going to err let it be on the side of people who step out on faith seeking real life change. It is this kind of high altitude criticism that has pushed people away from church. I choose people over religion!
Read any of Billy Graham’s books on his life and they are full of convert counts during the crusades. Do these not count as well? Was he wrong for mentioning them? I doubt he would be the target of these groups…even though it is exactly the same thing. The methods may change over time….The one constant is that the move of God can cause people to sell out and follow him. In a stadium or school auditorium the work of the Holy Spirit should always be celebrated. I will never be holy enough to question the power of Jesus….So for me 60 is an awesome number!
Filed under: Bartow County, Christianity, Church, Leadership, Uncategorized
[...] Deepak Shrivastava wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptThere seems to be some question as to whether decisions made by people at church services are real. On Easter we had 60 people indicate that they had prayed to receive Christ. There is a particular group out there that wants to question … [...]
[...] michaelrcrane wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerpt [...]
I do not doubt that some or perhaps most of those people that made professions of faith on Easter were real. But my concern is that they might trust in THEIR PROFESSION, which can not save. I do not find a place in the Bible that says to “pray” to receive Christ. Why then is it so common today to tell people to “pray” to receive Jesus as their savior? It reduces the Gospel down to a formula - come to the altar, pray this prayer, raise your hand, etc. Are we any better than the Roman church in making salvation depend upon observance of rituals?
I think the formula is Romans 10:9….Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that he died for your sins and you will be saved. (paraphrase)….It is really pretty simple and there is no reason to over complicate it with “theology” and “religion”.
Matt, I typed a long response and then erased it, realizing that if theology (the study of God) means nothing to you, I guess I have nothing to say. All I will say for now is that if the forming of words in the bodily organ called a mouth gets someone saved, then I know some people that can’t be saved because they can’t form words. But it would only take about 30 seconds to find a good Bible commentary on line to explain what this passage is saying, if you have a mind to research it. http://www.monergism.com has several commentaries available, free for the clicking. It’s not complicated at all.
Joel,
Now you are playing word games which again pushes people away from the church………We both know that “confess with your mouth” is a call for a public affirmation of faith after an internal commitment to accept Jesus Christ as savior has occurred.
Certainly an inability to speak would not keep a person from receiving the blessing of salvation.
The difference between the two of us is pretty clear………I see a person raise their hand or walk an isle and I see a person who just made a decision to change their life and follow God. You see that same person and immediately begin to question their motives and how long it will “last”.
Guess what…. you and I both sin everyday……I am a Christian and I will never get it right…but because of Jesus I don’t have to.
We welcome all the imperfect people at our church……..They are just like the rest of us and will fit in just fine!
Reposted from Old truth:
Wow, the mis information seems to have no end. Matt Shultz is reporting on his blog that we have a “negative view of in service spiritual conversions”. That’s not it at all Matt, we have a negative view of PASTORS KNOWING IMMEDIATELY HOW MANY GOT SAVED in services. Why is this so hard to understand?
Matt goes on to say that Michael is right, and makes this remark about the Old Truth website: “Historically the oldest truth in Christianity is that people doubted the work and identity of Jesus Christ. So I guess this web site is named correctly.” And Michael says WE are the ones who are mean spirited? Wow!
Matt concludes his post by saying “I will never be holy enough to question the power of Jesus, So for me 60 is an awesome number!”
Hey Matt, were not asking you to question Jesus, we’re asking you to question the instant stats that your pastor manufactures based on a show of hands, or a coming forward, or a signing of a card. Just take some time and let the real count play out over time. Why are we villains for suggesting such a thing, and what would hurt you to wait a number of months to make such declarations of people’s salvation?
————————————–
Did Billy Graham wait after his crusades? NO….He told people almost immediately how many people got saved. You have a double standard.
I also think it is important to remember that Jesus was the contemporary church in his time….It was the establishment / old truthers who crucified him.
Mat, thank you for allowing me to express my opinion on your blog. I’m very concerned about false professions and the damage that they do to God’s name. Having some experience in high-pressure witnessing, I’ve seen first-hand the problems it can cause. For example, I have a relative that claims to be “just as saved as you are”, even though he is completely out of fellowship with the church, has committed adultery, and is an alcoholic. His faith is in his profession - he went forward, said the prayer, and even got baptized. He checked off all the line items and now he’s free to sin.
You see, words are important. In fact, I didn’t know what you meant when you said “confess with your mouth”, because I know people that insist that it means “say a prayer”. I know many pastors that have said “if they didn’t say the prayer, they didn’t get saved, because the Bible says they have to cofess with their mouth…” Now if I misconstrude what you meant, isn’t it possible that a new convert can misconstrue what you mean?
Now, you said “I see a person raise their hand or walk an isle and I see a person who just made a decision to change their life and follow God”. I must protest! How are your eyes able to see the heart? How do you know that they are not just going through the motions in order to please a friend? So it is just as wrong to declare them “saved” as it is to declare them “not saved”. Only in enduring the trial of faith, and bearing the fruit of the Spirit can give us assurance of salvation.
And it is a good thing to welcome imperfect people into church, for as you said, we are all imperfect. But the Bible says that we are to “go on to perfection”, and some people will never even try to grow in grace and knowledge as long as their assurance comes from walking an ailse or saying a prayer. Unless a new nature has been imparted into their hearts by the Holy Spirit, they are not saved and it dishonors God and invalidates the Gospel for them to think they are. It is our job as Gospel preachers to ensure that those under our care understand these things.
Hoping that was more light than heat. Just think about it, okay?
Matt,
I am one of those non saved people you talk about. I personally have asked for more information in which to reach a decision of is this my path to follow or not. Instead, I read about you guys argue over how many were saved. Why don’t you send info, so you could add one more. Can you only get saved on Easter sunday at a church? Many blogging pastors out there seem to think so. You all need to reach those that ask questions, those that seek instead of arguing with each other.
Elizabeth,
Let me say first and foremost that becoming a Christian has been the best thing I have ever done in my life. I personally believe that God is big enough to “save” a person anywhere and at anytime. Easter is a time that churches focus on because people who generally do not attend church the rest of the year may come on Easter.
Honestly you would be better off attending the rest of the year and skipping Easter if it has to be one way or the other. I personally believe that you can be saved in someone’s home, outside, in a school, etc……The place is not as important as the change that takes place in your heart from accepting Jesus Christ as your savior.
I would find someone that you trust who you know is a Christian and begin sharing your questions with them. Start visiting a small group in someone’s home because it is a less intimidating way to begin the Christian walk.
Read these bible passages if you want to understand more about God’s plan for your salvation at http://www.biblegateway.com :
God Loves Us- John 3:16
Sin Separates us From God- Romans 3:23
The Gift of God- Romans 6:23
Grace through Faith- Ephesians 2:8-9
Confess Jesus as Lord- Romans 10:9-10
You are A Child of God- John 1:12
I hope this helps in your journey to Christian Faith!
Joel,
I think you misunderstand……I celebrate their decision to profess the act of obedience to follow God. Only God and the individual can really know if a change of heart really happened.
I just choose to live my life believing in the basic goodness that is somewhere in all of us.
Our job as believers is to facilitate life change by leading others to follow Jesus Christ. The Great Commission does not stop there because we also have to equip new Christians with the tools they need to understand and apply the choice that just made to follow God.
Most churches are good at the decision part and drop the ball in life application!
“I just choose to live my life believing in the basic goodness that is somewhere in all of us.”
OUCH!! Just when I thought we were getting closer, you drop this bomb! Ever heard of Pelagius? It really opened my eyes when I learned about the controversy between Augustine and Pelagius and the subsequent Council of Orange. Have you heard about it? It would be a good study.
Question to think about - If people are basically good, why do they need to be “born again”? Why not just improve their already righteous nature?
BTW I apparetnly mistook you for a pastor. Or are you one?
I am not a pastor and do not pretend to be…..(I am in the Liberty University Christian Leadership program which falls in the seminary department). Again you are trying to insert theology into a statement meant to describe my feeling that we should err on the side of believing people are making genuine decisions.
It is not our place question the salvation of another person at the instant the decision is made. A better approach would be to equip that person with the tools they need to live in true Christian faith.
Good read! Thank you!
Matt,
First time commenter here. My name is Robert from WV.
I really have an issue with some of the things you say because they smack of “decisional regeneration.”
You’ve heard of that right?
I realize that you’re “anti-theology” but really, you DO have a theology right now! It’s just not based on the word of God is all.
When you make this statement:
If what you mean is that God chose to save them by granting them repentance and faith, then it’s just a word issue we are having…but if you mean that this person was a partner in his/her own salvation no matter how small that part was…then we do have a problem. The scriptures teach otherwise.
The other statement you made that flies in the face of the word is this:
As Joel pointed out…men are not good, they do not have a basic goodness, they are basically evil to the core.
Can you exegete some scripture to support these two statements?
I think you’d agree that we need to get our worldview from the word and the word disagrees with you on these two things.
“I see a person raise their hand or walk an isle and I see a person who just made a decision to change their life and follow God.”
I believe that the Holy Spirit moved in the heart of the person and then they chose to respond to that internal call of salvation…….God’s desire is for all of us to be saved……Some do not make that choice because God gave us free will to follow or not follow him. Ultimately God saves man has no power to do that on our own.
“I just choose to live my life believing in the basic goodness that is somewhere in all of us.”
I think it is pretty sad that this is what you and Joel have decided to hang your intellectual argument on. I believe that we are all sinners and eternally separated from God without the salvation that comes from Jesus Christ.
Having said that……It does not mean that I have to look at people and see them in a negative vein. I think it also says in the Bible that we should treat people like we would want to be treated and I work hard to treat people good because that is how I would like to be treated. This idea that we treat the “un-saved” like a different class of people and look down upon them because they have not yet made a decision for Christ is highly unproductive and in my opinion completly opposite of the example of Jesus. That is what I mean when I say that I believe in the basic goodness of people……essentially that we need to view people in the vein of kindness because they are looking to Christians and the life we lead to see if we have a “faith” worth having.
If you and Joel want to parse words and try and find some deep theological flaw in my pretty simple statement then that’s your business but I am going to be nice, good and kind to all people if possible.
As far as theology and theocracy go…….Historically they have been used to exclude more people from Christianity than they have actually converted. Again it was Jesus who taught that the theological elite is his time were wrong.
“As far as theology and theocracy go…….Historically they have been used to exclude more people from Christianity than they have actually converted. Again it was Jesus who taught that the theological elite is his time were wrong.”
Mat, I would like to let this go but I can’t do it, seeing that you are in some sort of leardership role in your church, even though you might not hold an office.
Is this what you want to teach the people that are looking to you for leadership? “Theology” is some sort of evil plan hatched by the Pharisees? O man, than is so wrong. It’s astonishing.
Your pastor has a blog called “You Can Know God”. I think your pastor would agree with me that you can not know God without “Theology”, for “knowing God” is the very definition of theology. It’s just silly to demonize a word just because you don’t understand it. Don’t let your determination to disprove your critics cause you to be unteachable. We must always be willing to learn more about the truth, and often it is our critics that teach us the most. That goes for me too. I pray that God will keep me willing to learn even in the midst of a heated debate.
I believe in the Bible and its teachings……My relationship with God is a personal one.
Theology is defined as the study of religious faith, practice and experience. You could also call it the systematic study of religion.
That is not the way I interrelate and interact with God. I think theologians have confused as many people as they have helped.
I believe Jesus called us to a personal faith and relationship with him and I do need the over-analytical tenants of revisionist theology to drive my belief system.
Jesus is enough for me!
Sola Fida……Sola Scriptura!
Mat, theology is the study or knowledge of God, not religion. I would challenge what ever source gave you that definition. As rpavich said, you already have a theology whether you know it, or admit it, or not. You’re just shunning the word “theology” because it has been set in your mind as something bad.
You even signed the last post with “sola scriptura!” Hellelujah!, we’re getting somewhere. Indeed, the Bible is the Christian’s theology textbook. But how can we be “over-analytical” when the Bible itself says that we must live by “every word” that proceeds out of the mouth of God?
Now teach me something. What is “revisionist theology”?
The definition was from Websters…….It is not that I think theology is bad I just think it gets in the way of a real relationship with God.
When I refer to revisionist theology I am talking about modern denominations usings passages of scripture to try and qualify and justify religious mandates that where in my opinion never the intended purpose from God.
Mat, thanks for that explanation. I know you’re busy over at Oldtruth so I’ll make this my last comment. I was talking to a friend about the conversation that has been taking place here, and we both came to be concered about what seems to be your anti-intellectualism. Intellectualism, per se, can be bad if left to its own devices. But Biblical theology is simply learning about God, something we all need to do.
Your role as a Church leader is not to shield yourself or your people from information, but it is to expose them to information related to understanding the things of God. Doctrine is important, and church history is just as important, because you can’t really understand how we got to where we are unless you know where we’ve been. And why am I saying this to you? You are associated with a famous educational institute, so you should be lecturing me.
Anyway, you should not encourage your people to put down critics, but rather you should prepare them to “be ready to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason for the hope that is in you”. We should thank God for our critics, even though they really make us angry sometimes. May God open our eyes. Amen.
Joel,
I am in the Christian Leadership program…..The primary aim is how to manage people as a servant leader using Christian principles. I used to be a teacher and I am certainly not anti-education or even anti-intellectualism. I just think it comes down to a matter of what do you want to focus on. I would rather be a doer than sit deep intellectual reflection. I have over 27 hours of graduate work in two institutions plus a B.S.degree in education. I am also a veteran of the Marine Corps so I think my level of learning will be just fine.
Matt,
Words of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ,
“Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.: Jn 17.17
Cry out to God for a hunger for truth, be very cautious of feelings, worldly wisdom, common beliefs, humanism, pragmatism, because:
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. ” Jn 7.13-14
&
Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ Jn 7.22
May God open our eyes.
If you get a min., actually an hour, listen to this Sermon of an inner city (NYC) Pastor
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282
By the way Matt, I want to make it clear in view of your post on my blog that I oppose numbers-bragging whether the boaster is contemporary or traditional. In fact, it was an “old fashioned” number-bragging fundamentalist pastor that set me off against the practice. So this line of posting here and on Oldtruth is not really about old vs new church.
I want to maintain my privacy on the internet so I can’t be too specific, but I will tell you that the church I was once a minister in recorded the most professions and baptisms of any church in our state (of churches registered with the Hyles-Anderson Pastor’s Conference). We had about 1050 baptisms and over two thousand professions in a little country church with about 50 members. Now hows THAT for some numbers, eh? But within a year of winning the “Sword” award for the most baptism, the church closed. The church had no depth. It was not planted in good soil. We didn’t think theology was important. The only thing that mattered was “wining them and wetting them for the Kingdom”.
But even worse than that was the multitude of people that left our little church on buses and went back to the city thinking that they were saved because after a two-minte explanation of the Gospel, they repeated a prayer after me and were baptized within minutes of their profession. One man in our church even gave them money to be baptized and told them that they would go to Hell if they didn’t get baptized.
Now, I believe in election and that God will not fail to save any of His elect, but I also know that giving the lost a false assurance is displeasing to God. He will hold you and I accountable for reducing His great salvation down to a little ritual like “raise your hand” or “sigg the cross” or “come to the altar” or “pray this prayer”, or anything else we add to the Gospel.
“Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ”. Soli Deo Gloria!
as i understand it, most of these people are saying “let’s wait and see if the decision sticks, or if they show fruit” before we celebtrate. there is a little bit of truth in there, and a little bit of danger as well.
big question: how much time. three years? what if they fell from grace (whatever that means) after that? by saying we should take some time, aren’t we setting ourselves up for legalism. someone has to decide how much time and what the standard is.
this whole conversation is really out of control. let’s live out our faith, invite people to church, disciple people in the faith, and leave dissection the sematics of blog posts to those who have all day to blog.
I agree…..I am done with this topic!
Hi, I asked Jesus to save me when I was ten. I’m 22 now. I pray every now and then, when things aren’t too good, but that’s about it. I don’t read my Bible much, mainly b/c I’m real busy with school and work. My girlfriend and I have had some close calls concerning pregnancy, we wouldn’t get an abortion, cause she got saved too.
I’m being so open about this b/c no one actually knows who I am. So it’s ok. Anyways, I don’t do lots of drugs, I do drink, but I’m not an alcoholic. I’m also pretty committed to my girlfriend, we’ve been together for almost two years and I’ve never cheated on her.
I was wondering, according to the OldTruth guy, I’m not saved. And I think I am. Could you help me with this?
I know you said you were finished, but I was hoping you could help me with this. When I say I got saved, I mean, I asked Jesus into my heart, accepted him as my savior, and confessed him before my church, and then was baptized. I think I am, cause I done all of that stuff. Anyways, help me out please. Thanks Matt.
Tanner,
I think I would seek out a church that you feel comfortable in……Take your girlfriend too and start to build some relationships with other Christians. I think on issues this personal you would be better off speaking to a qualified Christian counselor or pastor.
Matt and others:
How I pray you will listen to this message on repenting and believing by Paul Washer. I pray you would see the contrast between the message you heard on the day we celebrate Christ’s resurrection and this one.
http://downloads2.sermonindex.us/14/SID14202.mp3
Chad,
Take that judgemental attitude back over to oldtruth…..There is no place for that here!
Matt
Update:
My comment wasn’t posted, instead I was rebuked with the statement above. (Chad)
So Matt obviously thinks that a person who by his own admission lives in open unrepentant sin shouldn’t be warned that his profession of faith is possibly spurious. That’s being judgmental in Matt’s eyes. Very sad Matt.
Actually I don’t think Monday Morning Theological Quarterbacking with judgment dripping from your superior sounding posts really help anyone. I would prefer to send this person to someone that he trusts…..A person who might actually care about him and not want to use him as a punch line to a theological argument. Instead of pointing out the speck in the eyes of others you might want to work on that log in your own eye!
Matt
(Threegirldad said:)
Not long after Chad posted his latest comment, Matt copied it over to his blog and added some additional rebukes.
I think there is frankly something perverse about a person like Matt having nothing but contempt for someone like Chad, and nothing but “love” and “grace” for someone like Tanner.
__________________________________________
I don’t know Chad or Tanner…….But I do know people whose help comes at the end of a superior quip. These tactics do not motivate the masses towards repentance. I have no contempt for Chad or anyone else at OT for that matter……I just think your theological and elitist approach pushes people away from Christianity. You have a culture of like minded people who have a club like mentality and to pretend that it is a site for truth seekers is a little far fetched.
I think I will let you guys bask in your doctrine and the need to out scripture each other. I am just going to keep on trying to be a better Christian and minister to those in need.
Theological elitists and those who care more about religion have pushed far more people from REAL faith than any harm caused by the Contemporary Church.